They should put something on the moon that would give lots of people
exposure to it:
a) an engineering school – teach a semester of graduate astronautics to
select students up on the moon. Make it a branch of MIT or Caltech.
Allocate 1 or 2 seats each semester to foreigners as a perk. Can you
imagine the interest this would generate in the study of engineering
among the kids in the U.S?
b) move the U.N. Security Council from New York onto the moon. What
better way to appreciate the impact of their actions than to see the
face of the earth each time they vote? Also, the U.S. could schedule
maintenance on the air valves in the meeting room every time a vote is
scheduled, just to make a point.
On Wed, 05 Nov 2003 04:31:26 GMT, in a place far, far away, Clueless
newbie <cluel…@newbie.com> made the phosphor on my monitor glow in
such a way as to indicate that:
>They should put something on the moon that would give lots of people
>exposure to it:
>a) an engineering school – teach a semester of graduate astronautics to
>select students up on the moon. Make it a branch of MIT or Caltech.
>Allocate 1 or 2 seats each semester to foreigners as a perk. Can you
>imagine the interest this would generate in the study of engineering
>among the kids in the U.S?
>b) move the U.N. Security Council from New York onto the moon. What
>better way to appreciate the impact of their actions than to see the
>face of the earth each time they vote? Also, the U.S. could schedule
>maintenance on the air valves in the meeting room every time a vote is
>scheduled, just to make a point.
Well, you certainly have an appropriate Usenet name…
–
simberg.interglobal.org * 310 372-7963 (CA) 307 739-1296 (Jackson Hole)
interglobal space lines * 307 733-1715 (Fax) http://www.interglobal.org
"Extraordinary launch vehicles require extraordinary markets…"
Swap the first . and @ and throw out the ".trash" to email me.
Here’s my email address for autospammers: postmas…@fbi.gov
On Wed, 05 Nov 2003 05:10:10 GMT, simberg.interglo…@org.trash (Rand
Simberg) wrote, in part:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -
>On Wed, 05 Nov 2003 04:31:26 GMT, in a place far, far away, Clueless
>newbie <cluel…@newbie.com> made the phosphor on my monitor glow in
>such a way as to indicate that:
>>They should put something on the moon that would give lots of people
>>exposure to it:
>>a) an engineering school – teach a semester of graduate astronautics to
>>select students up on the moon. Make it a branch of MIT or Caltech.
>>Allocate 1 or 2 seats each semester to foreigners as a perk. Can you
>>imagine the interest this would generate in the study of engineering
>>among the kids in the U.S?
>>b) move the U.N. Security Council from New York onto the moon. What
>>better way to appreciate the impact of their actions than to see the
>>face of the earth each time they vote? Also, the U.S. could schedule
>>maintenance on the air valves in the meeting room every time a vote is
>>scheduled, just to make a point.
>Well, you certainly have an appropriate Usenet name…
To amplify: what exactly is wrong with these suggestions?
With a): if we could *afford* to do anything like that, we wouldn’t
particularly need to.
With b): the U.N. Security Council does not belong to the United
States to be moved where it is told. If the United States shows signs
of the sort of behavior outlined in this post, one can take it for
granted the Security Council will locate itself anywhere but in any
part of the United States or any place under U.S. control.
Not that I am particularly fond of the anti-Americanism of the U.N..
It does not make sense for anything that might be considered the
nucleus of a world government to allow dictators to vote. I think that
the U.S. *and* Europe should just pull out of the UN, and make an
expanded NATO – including Australia, South Korea, Japan, Israel,
Taiwan, Botswana (Africa’s only country with both free elections and a
free press: the former British Bechuanaland, not to be confused with
the Bantustan of Bophuthatswana) and perhaps even Argentina and any
other reliably democratic Latin American nations – into the genuinely
representative assembly of the world’s people. Tunisia and Jordan
would also be welcome… as well, of course, as Iraq, once America has
successfully completed its mission there.
Unfortunately, such a thing is unlikely to happen. Anti-Israel
sentiment is strong in Europe; very few other democratic countries
want to offend either the Arab world or the People’s Republic of China
in the way that something like this would. Never mind what Russia
would think of this.
Sadly, there is some validity to the complaint that the U.S. does not
fully respect the sovereignity of other democratic nations. This
should not obscure the fact that the U.S., as the foremost defender of
democracy in the world, deserves the support of the democratic world,
and that its current position of dominance is a positive development.
At least people in Hungary, Poland, Slovakia, and the Czech Republic
might think so.
And the U.S., right now, is working with Pakistan to hunt down Osama
Bin Laden and other remnants of al-Qaeda. If India were admitted to
this new organization right away, as a functioning democracy, while
Pakistan had to abandon Islamic Law before qualifying, this would be
difficult.
So for a while yet, something that appears to be "the voice of the
world" will be anything but. It is a pity that the U.S. seems to have
only hostile critics, who are clearly enemies of what the U.S. is
doing that is worthwhile. Without friendly critics, it is impossible
to be perfect, and that only helps the hostile critics who should not
be taken seriously.
John Savard
http://home.ecn.ab.ca/~jsavard/index.html
"John Savard" <jsav…@ecn.aSBLOKb.caNADA.invalid> wrote in message
news:3fa8eef9.1943705@news.ecn.ab.ca…
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -
> On Wed, 05 Nov 2003 05:10:10 GMT, simberg.interglo…@org.trash (Rand
> >Well, you certainly have an appropriate Usenet name…
> To amplify: what exactly is wrong with these suggestions?
> With a): if we could *afford* to do anything like that, we wouldn’t
> particularly need to.
> With b): the U.N. Security Council does not belong to the United
> States to be moved where it is told. If the United States shows signs
> of the sort of behavior outlined in this post, one can take it for
> granted the Security Council will locate itself anywhere but in any
> part of the United States or any place under U.S. control.
> Not that I am particularly fond of the anti-Americanism of the U.N..
> It does not make sense for anything that might be considered the
> nucleus of a world government to allow dictators to vote. I think that
> the U.S. *and* Europe should just pull out of the UN, and make an
> expanded NATO – including Australia, South Korea, Japan, Israel,
> Taiwan, Botswana (Africa’s only country with both free elections and a
> free press: the former British Bechuanaland, not to be confused with
> the Bantustan of Bophuthatswana)
Umm… I don’t believe there is any problem with the electoral process in
the Republic of South Africa – at least not according to my in-laws who
still live there.
You know, I guess I just don’t agree with you. Tourism is not enough of a
market to turn it all over to private business. There has to be government
leadership and expense (but much more than has been going on for 30 years),
if only for the wonderful example it can set.
People are influenced by what they see on TV, and if all they get to see
are:
a) Twin Towers falling
b) shuttles exploding
c) Britney kissing Madonna
we end up living in the cesspool that we are living in.
In their own personal lives, people will not go the extra mile to do their
jobs right (like they once saw NASA do), because all they see is a constant
repitition of failure and compromise and self-indulgence and lack of
discipline.
You have to brainwash people not to be content with life in the trailer
parks.
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -
Rand Simberg wrote:
> On Wed, 05 Nov 2003 04:31:26 GMT, in a place far, far away, Clueless
> newbie <cluel…@newbie.com> made the phosphor on my monitor glow in
> such a way as to indicate that:
> >They should put something on the moon that would give lots of people
> >exposure to it:
> >a) an engineering school – teach a semester of graduate astronautics to
> >select students up on the moon. Make it a branch of MIT or Caltech.
> >Allocate 1 or 2 seats each semester to foreigners as a perk. Can you
> >imagine the interest this would generate in the study of engineering
> >among the kids in the U.S?
> >b) move the U.N. Security Council from New York onto the moon. What
> >better way to appreciate the impact of their actions than to see the
> >face of the earth each time they vote? Also, the U.S. could schedule
> >maintenance on the air valves in the meeting room every time a vote is
> >scheduled, just to make a point.
> Well, you certainly have an appropriate Usenet name…
> —
> simberg.interglobal.org * 310 372-7963 (CA) 307 739-1296 (Jackson Hole)
> interglobal space lines * 307 733-1715 (Fax) http://www.interglobal.org
> "Extraordinary launch vehicles require extraordinary markets…"
> Swap the first . and @ and throw out the ".trash" to email me.
> Here’s my email address for autospammers: postmas…@fbi.gov
"Clueless newbie" wrote…
> In their own personal lives, people will not go the extra mile to do their
> jobs right (like they once saw NASA do), because all they see is a
constant
> repitition of failure and compromise and self-indulgence and lack of
> discipline.
You’re making the mistake of thinking that what is true of yourself is true
of all. Not necessarily the case.
Jim Davis
On Wed, 05 Nov 2003 21:25:24 GMT, in a place far, far away, Clueless
newbie <cluel…@newbie.com> made the phosphor on my monitor glow in
such a way as to indicate that:
>You know, I guess I just don’t agree with you. Tourism is not enough of a
>market to turn it all over to private business.
There is no way for you to know that.
–
simberg.interglobal.org * 310 372-7963 (CA) 307 739-1296 (Jackson Hole)
interglobal space lines * 307 733-1715 (Fax) http://www.interglobal.org
"Extraordinary launch vehicles require extraordinary markets…"
Swap the first . and @ and throw out the ".trash" to email me.
Here’s my email address for autospammers: postmas…@fbi.gov
That is NOT true! Every week after Temptation Island, my sister and I look
through the paper for an apartment that will let us bring our dogs.
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -
Jim Davis wrote:
> "Clueless newbie" wrote…
> > In their own personal lives, people will not go the extra mile to do their
> > jobs right (like they once saw NASA do), because all they see is a
> constant
> > repitition of failure and compromise and self-indulgence and lack of
> > discipline.
> You’re making the mistake of thinking that what is true of yourself is true
> of all. Not necessarily the case.
> Jim Davis
>I think that
>the U.S. *and* Europe should just pull out of the UN, and make an
>expanded NATO – including Australia, South Korea, Japan, Israel,
Won’t happen with Israel, unfortunately, as this would cause fuel prices to
rise to US$9 a gallon. (Remember 1973?) Never mind the Islamist terrorism that
would resume in the US.
>Taiwan,
That won’t happen because it would piss off the Mainland. We seem to have a
need to fund our future adversaries.
>Sadly, there is some validity to the complaint that the U.S. does not
>fully respect the sovereignity of other democratic nations.
No world power ever has. Jacking around other nations for the home nation’s
good is as old as diplomacy.
John Savard wrote:
>Botswana (Africa’s only country with both
>free elections and a free press
Press freedom index:
http://www.rsf.org/article.php3?id_article=4116
Democratic rank:
http://www.worldaudit.org/democracy.htm
On Wed, 5 Nov 2003 14:09:48 +0000 (UTC), "Dave"
<d…@atomicrazor.spamoff.com> wrote, in part:
>Umm… I don’t believe there is any problem with the electoral process in
>the Republic of South Africa – at least not according to my in-laws who
>still live there.
I was basing that on rather out of date information, I must admit. Of
course, South Africa, after abandoning apartheid, has another
unenviable distinction. Now, it is women who are the oppressed class.
John Savard
http://home.ecn.ab.ca/~jsavard/index.html
"John Savard" <jsav…@ecn.aSBLOKb.caNADA.invalid> wrote in message
news:3fa9d6f9.5405765@news.ecn.ab.ca…
> On Wed, 5 Nov 2003 14:09:48 +0000 (UTC), "Dave"
> <d…@atomicrazor.spamoff.com> wrote, in part:
> >Umm… I don’t believe there is any problem with the electoral process
in
> >the Republic of South Africa – at least not according to my in-laws who
> >still live there.
> I was basing that on rather out of date information, I must admit. Of
> course, South Africa, after abandoning apartheid, has another
> unenviable distinction. Now, it is women who are the oppressed class.
Well, to be honest I’d say its not just limited to women, anybody with any
visable wealth needs to live carefully too.
"Clueless newbie" <cluel…@newbie.com> wrote in message
news:3FA88B57.73DF92CF@newbie.com…
> They should put something on the moon that would give lots of people
> exposure to it:
> a) an engineering school –
> b) move the U.N. Security Council from New York onto the moon. >
While your proposals are fun the two main uses of a Lunar base will be
exploration and hydrogen mining.
"Dholmes" <removedhol…@gte.net> wrote in message
news:0Y7rb.15043$n6.7693@nwrddc03.gnilink.net…
> "Clueless newbie" <cluel…@newbie.com> wrote in message
> news:3FA88B57.73DF92CF@newbie.com…
> > They should put something on the moon that would give lots of people
> > exposure to it:
> > a) an engineering school –
> > b) move the U.N. Security Council from New York onto the moon. >
> While your proposals are fun the two main uses of a Lunar base will be
> exploration and hydrogen mining.
What you’d want to mine is heavy stuff like iron. There is a lot more iron
than hydrogen on the moon.
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -
"Mike Rhino" <october2…@alexanderpics.com> wrote in message <news:bo9rb.124757$ZH4.81282@twister.socal.rr.com>…
> "Dholmes" <removedhol…@gte.net> wrote in message
> news:0Y7rb.15043$n6.7693@nwrddc03.gnilink.net…
> > "Clueless newbie" <cluel…@newbie.com> wrote in message
> > news:3FA88B57.73DF92CF@newbie.com…
> > > They should put something on the moon that would give lots of people
> > > exposure to it:
> > > a) an engineering school –
> > > b) move the U.N. Security Council from New York onto the moon. >
> > While your proposals are fun the two main uses of a Lunar base will be
> > exploration and hydrogen mining.
> What you’d want to mine is heavy stuff like iron. There is a lot more iron
> than hydrogen on the moon.
I think he means water. Hydrogen is not that much use without the Oxygen.
"Mike Rhino" <october2…@alexanderpics.com> wrote in message
news:bo9rb.124757$ZH4.81282@twister.socal.rr.com…
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -
> "Dholmes" <removedhol…@gte.net> wrote in message
> news:0Y7rb.15043$n6.7693@nwrddc03.gnilink.net…
> > "Clueless newbie" <cluel…@newbie.com> wrote in message
> > news:3FA88B57.73DF92CF@newbie.com…
> > > They should put something on the moon that would give lots of people
> > > exposure to it:
> > > a) an engineering school –
> > > b) move the U.N. Security Council from New York onto the moon. >
> > While your proposals are fun the two main uses of a Lunar base will be
> > exploration and hydrogen mining.
> What you’d want to mine is heavy stuff like iron. There is a lot more
iron
> than hydrogen on the moon.
No early on it is the lighter elements that will be mined.
It will cost 10s if not 100s of thousands of dollars to put a kilogram of
anything on the Moon
Small quantities of hydrogen, oxygen and nitrogen can supply a lunar base
with most of what is needed to support it.
Hydrogen when combined with oxygen can be used as rocket fuel and as water.
Iron needs extensive processing before it is of real use.
.
"Alex Terrell" <alexterr…@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:d81e59c9.0311090956.1f41908b@posting.google.com…
> "Mike Rhino" <october2…@alexanderpics.com> wrote in message
<news:bo9rb.124757$ZH4.81282@twister.socal.rr.com>…
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -
> > "Dholmes" <removedhol…@gte.net> wrote in message
> > news:0Y7rb.15043$n6.7693@nwrddc03.gnilink.net…
> > > "Clueless newbie" <cluel…@newbie.com> wrote in message
> > > news:3FA88B57.73DF92CF@newbie.com…
> > > > They should put something on the moon that would give lots of people
> > > > exposure to it:
> > > > a) an engineering school –
> > > > b) move the U.N. Security Council from New York onto the moon. >
> > > While your proposals are fun the two main uses of a Lunar base will be
> > > exploration and hydrogen mining.
> > What you’d want to mine is heavy stuff like iron. There is a lot more
iron
> > than hydrogen on the moon.
> I think he means water. Hydrogen is not that much use without the Oxygen.
The crust of the Moon is about 40% oxygen, so there is plenty of oxygen.
We do not yet know what form the hydrogen at the poles is in Ammonia is
almost as likely as water and would in some ways be better.
"Dholmes" <removedhol…@gte.net> wrote in message
news:a7Wrb.33296$p9.7070@nwrddc02.gnilink.net…
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -
> "Mike Rhino" <october2…@alexanderpics.com> wrote in message
> news:bo9rb.124757$ZH4.81282@twister.socal.rr.com…
> > "Dholmes" <removedhol…@gte.net> wrote in message
> > news:0Y7rb.15043$n6.7693@nwrddc03.gnilink.net…
> > > "Clueless newbie" <cluel…@newbie.com> wrote in message
> > > news:3FA88B57.73DF92CF@newbie.com…
> > > > They should put something on the moon that would give lots of people
> > > > exposure to it:
> > > > a) an engineering school –
> > > > b) move the U.N. Security Council from New York onto the moon. >
> > > While your proposals are fun the two main uses of a Lunar base will be
> > > exploration and hydrogen mining.
> > What you’d want to mine is heavy stuff like iron. There is a lot more
> iron
> > than hydrogen on the moon.
> No early on it is the lighter elements that will be mined.
> It will cost 10s if not 100s of thousands of dollars to put a kilogram of
> anything on the Moon
> Small quantities of hydrogen, oxygen and nitrogen can supply a lunar base
> with most of what is needed to support it.
Isn’t the outer shell the heaviest part of a lunar base? If you can figure
out how to make the shell out of local materials, then you can make the base
arbitrarily large.
> Hydrogen when combined with oxygen can be used as rocket fuel and as
water.
> Iron needs extensive processing before it is of real use.
Isn’t that also true of lunar hydrogen? We won’t need rocket fuel until we
have tourists. We may build a thousand tons of stuff before we need rocket
fuel.
If the moon has any mining at all, then it’s going to be the center of
economic activity in space. This would make the moon the best place to be.
Whatever you want to do in space, you should do it on the moon. There is no
good reason to export anything from the moon, so what would you need the
rocket fuel for?
>There is no
>good reason to export anything from the moon,
Yes there is; construction materials in deep-space and earth orbit.
Manufactured goods to be used in space.
so what would you need the
>rocket fuel for?
Ideally, one would not use rocket fuel, but a mass-driver. But as building one
would require years or decades, rocket transportation will be used before then.
Probably even after for flying humans to and from the moon, because of our low
G-tolerance.
"G EddieA95" <geddie…@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20031110213744.12914.00000345@mb-m25.aol.com…
> >There is no
> >good reason to export anything from the moon,
> Yes there is; construction materials in deep-space and earth orbit.
> Manufactured goods to be used in space.
Exporting stuff from the moon implies that two different projects are
funded — the lunar project and the project you are exporting to. In the
short run, I don’t see that happening.
In any case, why would you want construction materials in deep-space? What
is it you want to build? Why not build that thing on the moon?
>Exporting stuff from the moon implies that two different projects are
>funded — the lunar project and the project you are exporting to. In the
>short run, I don’t see that happening.
It will happen if the destination project requires the moon as a supply source,
i.e., kilotons of material and parts are needed that would just require too
many rockets to send up from Florida. In this setup, the deep-space project
would be the motivation behind the moon base.
>In any case, why would you want construction materials in deep-space? What
>is it you want to build? Why not build that thing on the moon?
Solar power stations. We, as a country (if not humankind) are going to need
them one day, and if we don’t start very soon we may lose the means to do it.
The collectors need to be in deep-space; they cannot be placed on the moon,
where they would be shadowed for 2 weeks at a time.
"Mike Rhino" <october2…@alexanderpics.com> wrote in message <news:4dXrb.11516$pE3.3908@twister.socal.rr.com>…
> Isn’t the outer shell the heaviest part of a lunar base? If you can figure
> out how to make the shell out of local materials, then you can make the base
> arbitrarily large.
> If the moon has any mining at all, then it’s going to be the center of
> economic activity in space.
You wont be able to do any of that, mining or materials processing,
before you have adequate power available. Yes, you can invest in R&D
to optimize the processes for as little energy consumption as
possible, but still, anything you do will be limited by available
power.
This will take either powerful nuclear reactor ( which IMO is
undesireable, because its a technology that isnt commercially
available ), or solar power source. So, to bootstrap, the most
important thing would be lunar-manufactured photovoltaics. More
available power, more options.
-kert
They should use the Bush lunar base for isolating the Bush family, especially
our so-called governor of Florida :-)
^
//^\\
~~~ near space elevator ~~~~
~~~members.aol.com/beanstalkr/~~~
"Kaido Kert" <kaido_k…@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:693cff74.0311110223.5cd1a72a@posting.google.com…
> "Mike Rhino" <october2…@alexanderpics.com> wrote in message
<news:4dXrb.11516$pE3.3908@twister.socal.rr.com>…
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -
> > Isn’t the outer shell the heaviest part of a lunar base? If you can
figure
> > out how to make the shell out of local materials, then you can make the
base
> > arbitrarily large.
> > If the moon has any mining at all, then it’s going to be the center of
> > economic activity in space.
> You wont be able to do any of that, mining or materials processing,
> before you have adequate power available. Yes, you can invest in R&D
> to optimize the processes for as little energy consumption as
> possible, but still, anything you do will be limited by available
> power.
> This will take either powerful nuclear reactor ( which IMO is
> undesireable, because its a technology that isnt commercially
> available ), or solar power source. So, to bootstrap, the most
> important thing would be lunar-manufactured photovoltaics. More
> available power, more options.
> -kert
I agree.